A Different Kind of Debate: Dean and Jordan
When is a debate not a debate? As part of the Jefferson Educational Society’s Global Summit, in Erie, Pennsylvania, Howard Dean, retired Democratic politician, and Elise Jordan, Republican political analyst participated in a debate on Tuesday, November 13, 2018, at Penn State Erie, The Behrend College. The event was moderated by Steve Scully, C-SPAN political editor, an Erie native, who said near the end of the evening, “Now we have a debate!”
Those who came to this event, eagerly anticipating anything like the fiery presidential debates we’ve seen on television, would have gone away sorely disappointed. Dean and Jordan were respectful and calm with each other, and although they expressed contrasting views on a variety of topics, they were united on one from the start, their dislike of Donald Trump.
Here’s a download from my notes, with a minimum of commentary, because, while I am more informed than some about all of the topics discussed, I am less informed than many. Please know that I am not a member of any political party. I have belonged to each of the two major ones in the past, but I have found that I am not a good fit for either. Here we go:
Political-Party Values
Jordan answered Scully’s question, about what her party stands for, by remarking that the Republican party is probably not very happy with her. That is a valid statement, because she’s been very critical of Donald Trump and in 2017, commented on MSNBC that supporting him is like hugging a suicide bomber, which caused Fox News to call her a liberal pundit. At this event, she said that the party’s treatment of Roy Moore and his sexual misconduct accusations soured her attitude. She then brought herself back to the question and said that Republicans stand for limited government and a strong foreign policy. This was followed by commenting that Donald Trump cares only about Donald Trump. She said that she admires Jeff Flake, Rand Paul, Charlie Baker, and Larry Hogan as Republicans who are willing to work with the other side.
Dean said that the Democratic party has been taken over by young people, and he seems pleased by that. He says the younger generation is more polite than his had been. He said they support pro-human rights and women’s rights. He also thinks that the young Democrats are more fiscally responsible than their predecessors had been.
Kavenaugh
While Jordan and Dean differ on whether Kavenaugh deserves a seat on the Supreme Court, both believe that the process that got him there is flawed. Jordan said America is lucky that Trump picked Kavenaugh and that she has worked with him in the past and never had a problem with him. She said that the whole situation was handled badly by both sides, because the Democrats knew there was an issue with him in advance, and Republicans didn’t handle the investigation properly
Dean said he doesn’t believe Kavenaugh has a right to the seat because the process wasn’t handled properly. He also believes that the Supreme Court has become a political body, which is not what it was designed for, and Jordan agreed with him.
National Debt
Jordan is concerned about the deficit, which she blames Trump for because of his tax cuts and massive spending. Dean concurred and at some point reported that Obama created more jobs in the last two years of his term in office than Trump did in his first two. Both think that there is value in the corporate tax cuts, because they will stimulate growth in cities like Erie, Pennsylvania.
Entitlement Programs
Dean said that he doesn’t believe entitlement programs should be cut, and he mentioned that Trump wants to cut them. He added, “That’s why he’s gonna get his butt kicked.” Jordan said she doesn’t think entitlement programs should be cut, but she also thinks there should be more transparency with medical costs and thinks that healthcare should be reformed.
Healthcare
Dean doesn’t like the term, “single-payer healthcare.” He believes that the number-one issue is fee-for-service medicine and that the current system rewards health providers based on the number and complexity of healthcare services they provide. He thinks hospitals should see patients as a liability rather than revenue sources, and then they wouldn’t offer unnecessary treatment.
Jordan agreed that costs are out of control, but noted that the increased regulations that resulted from the Affordable Care Act have meant that physicians are burdened by doing paperwork now, and the system is a mess. She made a statement about the end of Trump’s term as president, and this sparked a follow-up question from Steve Scully, asking if she thought he will be a one-term president. Jordan said that if the election for Trump’s second term were held today, he would probably win, but she also thinks the Mueller investigation will have an effect on his chances.
Dean talked about a concept called Accountable Care Organizations (ACO) that could take over insurance companies. He mentioned that in his home state of Vermont, insurance companies are buying hospitals and vice versa. (We see this happening in Pennsylvania, too.) He thinks this will result in lower administrative costs. When considering what would happen if one’s ACO didn’t offer a service that the patient needed, he said they would go to another provider and pay extra.
In a remark that seems out of touch, Dean said that people can choose whatever insurance company they want. That may be the case for the unemployed, but it is employers who select health-insurance companies, ideally with the intent on keeping their employees healthy at a reasonable cost.
College For Free
Jordan said she doesn’t support free higher education, because she says you get what you pay for. Dean thinks that the United States higher-education system is heading for a crisis. He said that Pell Grants allowed colleges and universities to build Taj Mahals that are unsustainable, and that it’s unfair to expect the students to be responsible sustaining those structures. He suggested that all the students refuse to make their loan payments for one month.
United Nations
Scully asked about the United Nations’ 1950 concept of “Universal Morality.” Jordan said she doesn’t believe that an institution should dictate morality. Dean said he believes in the United Nations, but said it is flawed. He didn’t address the morality question.
Gun Control
Jordan said she grew up in the south in a house full of guns, and she believes in the second amendment. Her mother has a concealed-carry permit. Jordon doesn’t like the fact that there is more regulation on the cars we drive than on guns. She thinks there should be reforms about proper storage and proper acquisition.
Dean agreed and added that the NRA had once supported him, and he believes in the second amendment. He also said he doesn’t like what the NRA has become, and he thinks the organization might have worked with the Russians to influence United States’ political campaigns.
Jordan commented that both the NRA and Planned Parenthood use the same type of slippery-slope rhetoric that the loss of rights related to their causes with lead to a reduction in other freedoms. She said they both use this as a reason to alarm people.
Immigration
Jordan says it’s unfortunate that Bush wasn’t able to push through immigration control. Dean made the point that the United States should use its funds to help other countries run themselves better so that those places are better environments for people to live and raise their children.
Getting Along
When asked how Republicans can work with Democrats to get something done, she replied that people just need to act like decent human beings and see what the other side can live with. Dean said that he works very well with Republicans. He said it’s necessary to respect the person across the table. They shouldn’t be afraid to say no to their own party and follow their conscience.
Federal Minimum Wage
Jordan doesn’t think an across-the-board minimum wage would be appropriate, because the cost of living varies so greatly between states. Dean sees value in a federal minimum wage and doesn’t want anyone to go without.
China
Jordan says it’s in our best interest to have a strong China. She hates the steel tariffs, but thinks we need to do something about Chinese cheating. She says that Trump’s biggest mistake was withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Dean agreed and said that trade agreements are defense agreements, and they help to keep other countries in line.
Looking Ahead
Jordan said that members of each party put too much emphasis on loyalty. Dean mentioned the recent article about Hillary Clinton wanting to run for president in 2020 He said that he knows Hillary and she is “not running for president.” To this, the audience applauded.
Advice for Young People
Dean’s and Jordan’s messages to young people were very much the same. Jordan said that too much emphasis is placed on national topics and that young people should not forget about their own local communities. Dean agreed said that young people should be impatient, angry and want to win.
While I was glad that the evening didn’t turn out to be a slugfest between Dean and Jordan, I was disappointed that they found their common ground in redundantly criticizing the President. This practice has become the low-hanging fruit for writers, politicians, and comedians. By now, we are well-schooled on Trump’s many character flaws. We should never stop speaking our minds, but it should be with the intent of making the general condition better, not commiserating tittering over tired old rhetoric.
Considering the event as a whole, while eliminating the Trump factor, it was an excellent example of how two people, on different sides of the two-party system, can think with their own minds and speak in a manner in which purists from their camps might not embrace. On the topics where Dean and Jordon disagreed, they were able to state their cases without insults, name-calling, and closed minds, something that many conservatives and liberals could learn from these days.
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